Save the Badger

[ValleyBoy]

The culling of badgers, as a supposed solution for the spread of cattle to badgers, has also been dismissed by a whole host of scientists,

Of the 'whole host of scientistists' you mention, I only find one. A Mr Booty, who is employed as a 'Senior Scientific Officer' for the RSPCA, who also gave evidence to the Parliamentary Select Committee.Whilst I respect the excellent work of the RSPCA who's main activity is with protecting domestic pets, you should note that the highest qualification this Mr Booty has is a ordinary degree, and he is at odds with the main body of scientific opinion of his more eminent and better qualified colleagues. I will however, quote the evidence of Mr Booty to the Parliamentary Committee, and I quote, " I personally have not had a chance to fully absorb and analyse the 300 pages yet."

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmenvfru/130/7062002.htm

and environmentalist – and even Sir David Attenborough.

Please note that we are all 'environmentalists', and that Sir David Attenborough prefers to be dubbed a 'broadcaster and naturalist. You will also note that the BBC Natural History Unit do not 'oppose' the cull of badgers in West Wales and will be reporting on it objectively. Sir David Attenborough was very interested in the research conducted on prehistoric peoples of the Gower, and was one of the first naturalists to identify that animal remains in archaeological sites suggested that systematic culling of wild animals, which were not directly consumed as food, was the earliest techniques used in the agriculture of Wales.

[ValleyBoy]

I guess life is cheap for some people. The life of a badger worthy of just a pedantic glib remark by ValleyBoy and his Plaid Cymru mates. How very, very sad. Elin Jones may have already won awards at the Farmers Union. Plaid Cymru will try to use this win votes from farmers in rural areas. Meanwhile Wales' reputation and image is damaged. Many, many, voters are seeing Plaid Cymru for what they really are. They should have learnt from the damage done to their reputation in this area because of their coalition with right-wing Tory's in Taff Ely BC.

You should note that "Taff-Ely Borough Council" no longer exists, and that the local authority for the area is now 'Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council'. There is only one Tory, on the council who is actually allied to the Liberal Democrats. Plaid Cymru are currently the official opposition, and stand as an independent group. You should also note that Plaid Cymru do not see divide farmers or rural areas from other communities, and respect the wishes of all the communities of Wales.

[ValleyBoy]

The UK Government conducted the biggest ever scientific study into bovine TB (Independent Scientific Group), and it's links to badgers. The research and study took ten years. It's finding was: "ISG2 A key conclusion of our work was that “badger culling can make no meaningful contribution to cattle TB control in Britain” (Bourne et al., 2007)." For this reason Sec State for DEFRA, Hilary Benn refused to pander to the blood lust of farmers and has put forward a programme of vaccinating badgers

You appear to have committed the PontyTown sin of not bothering to read my previous post on this message thread, otherwise you would have noticed that it was me who has already posted a link. You will also notice the full quote as being "At paragraph 10.92 of their final report the ISG states that badger culling cannot meaningfully contribute to the control of cattle TB in Britain. However, the data do not support such an unqualified conclusion.".

[ValleyBoy]

So if farmers are now actually going to implement those measures they should have been made to do years ago in relation to bovine TB

Farmers have almost always complied with existing laws in livestock movements.
Do you wish to may a specific allegation to the contrary ?

Far from being 'forced' to include livestock movement controls in the cull zone, there are already existing controls. Indeed, the reason for the delay in the introduction of the cull, was to allow additional restrictions on livestock movements. This was one of the flaws identified in the ISG report making some of the data inconclusive. What England got wrong, Wales will get right.

[ValleyBoy]

Leading scientists ValleyBoy and Elin Jones, once again know better than just about anyone else, no doubt

You appear to be making assumptions about me, Cool Cymru. My only expertise in this field in through engineering. In 1978 when I was studying at Gwynedd Technical College, my project was the development of electronic tagging. My work was eventually used by the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology by the University Farm at Abergwyngregyn on the Coedydd Aber nature reserve (Now run by the Countryside Commission For Wales). It was found that the culling of certain wild species could be used as a method of enhancing the habitat of other rare endangered spices. This has led me to two conclusions (a) that culling is a perfectly acceptable method of population control for nature conservation and agriculture, and (b) my father was right when he told me not to go underground, even though the pay and prospects at the time were good.

[pontyproud]

Saddo, sending a load of posts instead of one. There is no point in talking to someone like you - determined to trot out the party line whatever the evidence.
But I guess you were right not to go underground. If you did that in Pembs you would probably be trapped and shot at dawn.

[Yn Oga]

Saddo, sending a load of posts instead of one. There is no point in talking to someone like you - determined to trot out the party line whatever the evidence.
But I guess you were right not to go underground. If you did that in Pembs you would probably be trapped and shot at dawn.

John or is it Sue, the board only allows 2 'quotes' to be embedded in reach post, to make a point and address each point made at times you need to break a reply down as VB has.

[ValleyBoy]

I certainly will never vote for Plaid Cymru again – a view shared by many people I know.

You may wish to consider the following vote at the Senedd, in consideration of your suggested voting intentions.

In favour of the cull.

Plaid Cymru, Davies, Jocelyn
Plaid Cymru, Evans, Nerys
Plaid Cymru, Franks, Chris
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Alun Ffred
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Elin
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Gareth
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Helen Mary
Plaid Cymru, Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Plaid Cymru, Lloyd, David
Plaid Cymru, Ryder, Janet
Plaid Cymru, Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
LibDem, Randerson, Jenny
LibDem, German, Michael
LibDem, Bates, Mick
LibDem, Burnham, Eleanor
LibDem, Williams, Kirsty
Labour, Jones, Carwyn
Labour, Gibbons, Brian
Labour, Griffiths, John (Newport East)
Labour, Hutt, Jane
Labour, Sargeant, Carl
Labour, Thomas, Gwenda
Labour, Davidson, Jane
Labour,, Davies, Alun
Labour, Davies, Andrew
Labour, Andrews, Leighton
Labour, Morgan, Rhodri
Conservative, Cairns, Alun
Conservative, Isherwood, Mark
Conservative, Melding, David
Conservative, Millar, Darren
Conservative, Davies, Andrew RT
Conservative, Davies, Paul
Conservative, Ramsay, Nick
Conservative, Williams, Brynle
Conservative, Bourne, Nick
Conservative, Graham, William
Party of Self Interest, Asghar, Mohammad


Against the cull.

Labour, Lorraine Barrett
Labour, Janice Gregory
Labour, Lesley Griffiths
Labour, Irene James
Labour, Ann Jones
Labour, Huw Lewis
Labour, Val Lloyd
Labour, Sandy Mewies
Labour, Lynne Neagle
Labour, Karen Sinclair
LibDem, Peter Black
Independent, Trish Law

Abstentions/Did not vote.

Labour, Jeff Cuthbert
Plaid Cymru, Bethan Jenkins
Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Elis Thomas.

The majority of ALL the major political parties in Wales support the cull, and strangely, it's actually the Conservative Party who voted most strongly in favour.

This issue might just well be the undoing of Plaid Cymru.

May I ask you why you have chosen to target Plaid Cymru and not all the other political parties who are in favour, and voted for the cull ?

[alicol]

Culling is just an euphemism foe 'we can't be arsed'. I agree with the OP that these wonderful creatures shouldn't be killed because of a Government Directive. I used to watch Badgers sauntering across our garden because it'd been their right of way for generations, why should they move? To kill a creature when it could be vaccinated just means laziness. When they're gone all those of you who've agreed with this can show your children/great grand children, pictures of a remarkable animal. We're eradicating our planet of animals that don't fit in with us, perhaps we should try and fit in with them.

[Mike Powell]

I certainly will never vote for Plaid Cymru again – a view shared by many people I know.

The majority of ALL the major political parties in Wales support the cull, and strangely, it's actually the Conservative Party who voted most strongly in favour.

This issue might just well be the undoing of Plaid Cymru.

May I ask you why you have chosen to target Plaid Cymru and not all the other political parties who are in favour, and voted for the cull ?

You ever thought that people might just decide that Plaid is not for them because of the way you and the rest of your "team" behave ValleyBoy?

[ValleyBoy]

Culling is just an euphemism foe 'we can't be arsed'. I agree with the OP that these wonderful creatures shouldn't be killed because of a Government Directive. I used to watch Badgers sauntering across our garden because it'd been their right of way for generations, why should they move? To kill a creature when it could be vaccinated just means laziness. When they're gone all those of you who've agreed with this can show your children/great grand children, pictures of a remarkable animal. We're eradicating our planet of animals that don't fit in with us, perhaps we should try and fit in with them.

Vaccination.
The oral vaccination programme failed. There is a proposed injectable vaccination programme but this would rely on catching the badgers first. The success of any vaccination programme of badgers will actually be enhanced by a geographically isolated cull, as this pilot scheme is doing. This would also provide better analysis to determine what percentage of the badger population is needed to be vaccinated, the infection rates, and the propensity of transmission. Badgers culled will be tested and given post-mortems. This selective cull will actually assist in developing an injectable vaccination programme if and when it is available.

General Comment.
Otherwise, I agree with what you have said. There is a glaringly obvious way of preventing bTB in cattle, that of intensive indoor husbandry. It would mean that 'free range' cattle would stop, and all dairy products and meat from cattle would be reared indoors on an intensive basis. The concept of 'free range' or 'organic' produce would disappear. There are moral arguments for and against the cull, and those who are strict vegans are those who have a point. Do you consume dairy products or meat ? Do you think animal herds should be farmed out-doors ?

[Mike Powell]

Culling is just an euphemism foe 'we can't be arsed'. I agree with the OP that these wonderful creatures shouldn't be killed because of a Government Directive. I used to watch Badgers sauntering across our garden because it'd been their right of way for generations, why should they move? To kill a creature when it could be vaccinated just means laziness. When they're gone all those of you who've agreed with this can show your children/great grand children, pictures of a remarkable animal. We're eradicating our planet of animals that don't fit in with us, perhaps we should try and fit in with them.

Vaccination.
The oral vaccination programme failed. There is a proposed injectable vaccination programme but this would rely on catching the badgers first. The success of any vaccination programme of badgers will actually be enhanced by a geographically isolated cull, as this pilot scheme is doing. This would also provide better analysis to determine what percentage of the badger population is needed to be vaccinated, the infection rates, and the propensity of transmission. Badgers culled will be tested and given post-mortems. This selective cull will actually assist in developing an injectable vaccination programme if and when it is available.

General Comment.
Otherwise, I agree with what you have said. There is a glaringly obvious way of preventing bTB in cattle, that of intensive indoor husbandry. It would mean that 'free range' cattle would stop, and all dairy products and meat from cattle would be reared indoors on an intensive basis. The concept of 'free range' or 'organic' produce would disappear. There are moral arguments for and against the cull, and those who are strict vegans are those who have a point. Do you consume dairy products or meat ? Do you think animal herds should be farmed out-doors ?

Is there a "vaccination programme" ready to go after the cull? NO there is not. ValleyBoy your inability to see an alternative to your politically constrained views does you no favours at all. Now please get a grip and listen to what you are being told ValleyBoy, please.

[ValleyBoy]

Is there a "vaccination programme" ready to go after the cull?
NO there is not.

Yes there is.

There are a number of areas of England where another vaccination programme is being attempted, as from summer 2010 : Staffordshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and Devon. As with the failed oral vaccination project, it's not off to a very good start, as there are different strains of the M.bovis infection. What has already been identified in England is that if a vaccination of a particular strain is done, a replacement variant strain becomes prevalent, negating the effects of an initial vaccination. The data already established by Defra actually proves that where there is an areas where the badger population is reduced, the propensity for the introduction of a variant strain from migration, is less. Obviously, the best way to reduce the badger population, is by a cull.

Bizarrely, on 8th January 2010, Defra in England sent a consultation document to the Welsh Government asking what their views were on employing non-vets to conduct vaccinations in England. No doubt that the Welsh government will be in a position to report a fall in badger numbers in Preseli/Ceredigion, and that if an effective injectable vaccination is suitable for that strain, the number of badgers left in that area that need injecting is a number suitable for conducting the exercise professionally.

[Mike Powell]

Is there a "vaccination programme" ready to go after the cull?
NO there is not.

Yes there is.

There are a number of areas of England where another vaccination programme is being attempted, as from summer 2010 : Staffordshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and Devon. As with the failed oral vaccination project, it's not off to a very good start, as there are different strains of the M.bovis infection. What has already been identified in England is that if a vaccination of a particular strain is done, a replacement variant strain becomes prevalent, negating the effects of an initial vaccination. The data already established by Defra actually proves that where there is an areas where the badger population is reduced, the propensity for the introduction of a variant strain from migration, is less. Obviously, the best way to reduce the badger population, is by a cull.

Bizarrely, on 8th January 2010, Defra in England sent a consultation document to the Welsh Government asking what their views were on employing non-vets to conduct vaccinations in England. No doubt that the Welsh government will be in a position to report a fall in badger numbers in Preseli/Ceredigion, and that if an effective injectable vaccination is suitable for that strain, the number of badgers left in that area that need injecting is a number suitable for conducting the exercise professionally.

You really are a very stupid person ValleyBoy, bizarrely Plaid must be proud to have you.

[J H]

so after a huge cull... the number of badgers left in that area that need injecting is a number suitable for conducting the exercise professionally.

My God! We're being overrun by badgers, and foxes and giant mutant chickens 50foot tall, help, help, please save us Valley Boy you're our only hope!!! Thank God for farmers and their huge sheds otherwise we'd all need rescuing from this menace of the countryside, what happens if the ducks escape? We'll never cope, We're doomed I tell you, doomed!